Dr. Robin Ruizendaal Interview

Thunderbolt Fantasy is part of the gateway as it's reached many fans of anime/manga in general.

I'm very certain people who love Japan and other Asian cultures would also like Taiwanese culture. As you know, Taiwan just sits in a deserted corner, unknown by many while countries like Japan stand out like a bright white star in the sky. So it's up to people like YOU and ME to help Taiwan become a fellow bright star in the sky and shine. Knowledge is power and the more of it we can spread, the more other cultures will know about Taiwan’s culture with its rich history and traditions. In my own opinion, I think people are one of the best means of promotion, no matter what it is they are promoting. The more people outside of Taiwan who help promote its culture, the better for the world to know of it and who can explore the infinite wonders Taiwan has to offer.

7.4 Dr. Robin Ruizendaal Interview

Interview with Dr. Robin Ruizendaal

2019-03-13, 2:00-2:37pm, personal interview

1. In 2018 I attended one of your lectures about Taiwanese puppetry. During your talk you said “Why puppets are political is because you literally have Taiwan on your hand.” How is Taiwan puppetry political?

They don't really represent politics but they are part of a certain political message about identity, about Taiwanese identity as opposed to any other identity. As such it's mainly used by politicians and basically only during election time to show their Taiwaneseness. Puppet theater because of its history is the easiest thing to show that. Also because it's fun and the puppets don't talk back.

So they have very positive aspects and it's part of the Taiwanese psyche because of the television puppets in the 1970s and the Pili hype now. From that perspective it's got more cultural value in Taiwan than in any other place in Asia.

You have the whole of Taiwan in your hand as I always say. If you have a puppet in your hand, every politician will either be photographed with a puppet or invite puppet theater companies to perform. Tsai Ing-wen had a puppet theater company go into night markets and Chen Shui-bian had a puppet made of himself so basically that's it.

2. Taiwan has such a history of immigrants and the immigration waves have changed its society. Is this idea of a hybrid identity reflective in puppetry?

Well, I think the lines are still pretty much clearly drawn between people who identify as

Taiwanese or identify as Mainland ancestry. There's some blurred lines because the second/third generation can be either way. It's pretty much related to Taiwan. It's related to Taiwan identity and for the sort of leaning Mainland people it's Chinese heritage so it's that double edged sword.

It's a reflection of social change that's coming in that transcends identity questions. It's more about what is considered as beautiful and attractive. Especially in the field of what is attractive, that is the main change. Ugly is always ugly but attractiveness changes a lot. So the bigger nose, bigger eyes, thinner faces, all these elements you see that are considered good in society are reflected in the faces of the puppets.

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3. One thing that kept coming up in my research is how to measure the effectiveness of puppetry as cultural diplomacy. How do you show that an opinion has been changed or an opinion has been influenced?

Yeah, well there are many different ways to measure success. What is success? So that's a very tricky question.

4. How do you measure success with the museum’s cross-collaborations?

Of course, what is considered success is a large audience and you make money. In that respect we're a complete failure. The live performance of puppet theater is completely at the fringes of the entertainment industry and the arts industry, both in the perception of the audience and the government. When you get copied that's usually a reason for success. Audiences, everybody has hardly any audience so that's very difficult to say. But you see that in the field of exhibitions and performance and presentations as well. So with how you present your company on paper or on the internet you can see the influence because we are very successful in that respect. You see people copying that and being more professional in the presentation of the groups.

5. How do you secure government funding?

Government support is based on a simple system of equal distribution of funds. There's very little money, it's a small cake and everybody gets a slice. Then you have the relations factor but that maybe adds a little more but not too much. Sometimes you just happen to have jury

members who are slightly more positive to you so you have more than someone else.

6. How are foreign tourists reactions like when compared to the reactions of locals?

They're looking for a chunk of Taiwanese culture that is easily accessible. We have very positive reactions from both foreign visitors and Taiwanese visitors.

7. In your book²⁹you quote the survey about glove puppetry being voted the number one symbol of Taiwan, beating Jade Mountain and Taipei 101. Do you know of any other similar surveys about puppetry? Or surveys measuring the effectiveness of puppetry as cultural diplomacy?

No.

[Stephanie Huffman] I wanted you to say yes but I have been searching and I have not been able to find any.

Ok, no. I also talked to the Minister in charge and they were quite amazed as well by the outcome, they didn't expect it. I think there was a choice of twenty or thirty.

[Stephanie Huffman] My hope was that since puppetry was number one, they’d do a few more surveys but no?

No.

[Stephanie Huffman] Do you know of any surveys measuring the effectiveness of puppetry as cultural diplomacy?

29Fushiki, K., & Ruizendall, R. (2016). Potehi: Glove puppet theatre in Southeast Asia and Taiwan. Taipei: Taiyuan Publishing.

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8. What was the inspiration for the museum’s cross-collaboration projects?

Sometimes people come to visit us, sometimes the government wants us to do something. Like with Thailand, the government asked us to do something with Thailand. With Istanbul I wanted to do something with Istanbul and with Holland I forgot what that was. With Macau it was because they asked us to do something about the history of Macau. So, many different reasons, the government proposes something, we propose something or someone proposes something.

[Stephanie Huffman] The government wanted you to work with Thailand. What was the hoped for outcome?

Well there was a big Thai sort of culture exhibition at the Central Taiwan at the hand

craft/handicraft research center in Nantou. They said we want to do something with Thailand and we have this budget so would you care to set it up? So I set it up and then it happened.

9. When these cross-collaborations happen, how do you balance the influence of each culture?

It was always egalitarian I think.

10. What is the benefit of cross-collaboration projects over solely Taiwanese puppetry exhibitions or performances?

Because you're out of your comfort zone, same as when you live in a foreign country. You're more aware of your own positive sides and negative sides. When you work together with another country you're more aware of the pros and cons of Taiwanese puppet theater and how to use it.

Every time it's a challenge to integrate different styles and music together. It’s fun and it's a learning process overall. Definitely a new play is created. I think you influence each other, definitely you're inspired. I think that's the most important thing.

11. When you perform or display Taiwanese glove puppetry to a foreigner audience is there a danger of cultural displacement?

There's not. Well the concept is very broad, the concept of 'foreigner'. There are different levels in Taiwanese society. For me, small children are like little foreigners because they're so out of touch with traditional culture. So you need to analyze your audience all the time. Of course there’s basic knowledge of Taiwanese puppeteers and the scene and everything. It's not exactly that they will know much more about the storylines because they know all the stories. They probably know the characters better so there is a basic understanding. It's more advanced.

We try to analyze every audience. Basically we make every exhibition a three level audience approach. We make it accessible to children, families and experts or people who have read a little bit more about it. So that's the basic idea. Everything in the exhibition we make is thinking about the person who doesn't know very much about the subject.

12. What do you think of Pili? Why are they more popular than puppet museums or performances?

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I'm happy they exist. It's a totally fascinating story. They're marketing, branding is impressive.

People are so into them. Television is very difficult to compete with. That's the problem of live theater.

13. What was the museum’s Touch Taiwan project with shadow puppetry? You worked with Aboriginal stories?

Yeah we asked the tribes to give us their stories. We wrote a play in Chinese, gave it back to the tribe, they translated it into their native language. Then we went back and the children performed it for their own tribe in their tribal language.

[Stephanie Huffman] Aboriginal culture didn't have puppets originally?

No. It was my idea because I remember everything I did in elementary school in French or other languages. So you remember the songs you learned, you remember the theater pieces very well.

It's a great way to learn a language. It was sort of a theater native language project that lasted three years. We published a documentary, two books.

14. You're working with the French culture association in March and performing the French Sailor play?

Yeah, we'll just perform yeah. It's the French month around the world.

[Stephanie Huffman] Did you get approached for that?

Yeah they saw the show.

15. Do you think that puppets can be used as cultural diplomacy?

Absolutely. Especially for Taiwan. We've done it around the world, 50 countries. It works very well as soft power.

16. What was the audience feedback for the shows you took abroad?

It's always been quite positive. Slowly, you're getting more and more recognition because we're not the only group going out. Now there's lots of groups. People have studied this type of theater.

17. What do you think is the future of Taiwan glove puppetry?

I don't see many big changes. As long as there's not going to be a school or education program things will just continue. Not much, I don't see anything creative or new coming out, the new shows of course but so so.

18. Do you have any museum statistics?

I don’t think so.

19. Is it hard to travel because China's pressuring so much?

No. We don't notice anything; we're just too small. We're flying under the radar.